Workshop, 2000 April / Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee 40th anniversary conference videocassette tapes, 2000 / Duke Digital Repository

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In the middle of the night, you know, when people,

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the sheriff, depending on his mood or his ability

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to be the local caudillo to set dogs out, okay,

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you can have the local crazies let loose,

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you could have the local trustees let loose, okay.

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All kind of things, and I worked at county.

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Issaquena County, its one of the Black counties

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that was set up right after the civil war.

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The Blacks never controlled any part of the county.

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Are you ready for this?

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Whites came in from Arkansas and ran the whole natural gas

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operation, which is where the money in the county was.

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And we didn't have a car.

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We literally walked that county.

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So you needed a good pair of shoes.

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And the sheriff, I remember when I met the Sheriff Rolio,

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Sheriff Davis said, "How're y'all?"

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'cause you know Southerners are funny, you know,

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they'll greet you and shoot you, too.

0:46

(audience laughter)

0:49

Sheriff Davis said, "Hi y'all, don't go to (mumbles)"

0:55

Like that kinda conversation,

0:59

praised me as I'm walking down to road, you know.

1:01

"Where you goin?"

1:03

"No place."

1:04

Okay, so he'd go on about his business and,

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you know, it's another day.

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He'd come back and he'd see me again and Sheriff Davis says,

1:09

"I'm building you a jail out there."

1:12

He's building a cement wooden room number

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out in the middle of nothing.

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I mean, heaven help the poor soul who has to live in this

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because this unrelenting sun is

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really gonna bake this poor soul.

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And he said, "I'm building it."

1:27

"I'm waiting for you to do something,"

1:28

You know, that kinda thing.

1:30

Then another time he came through, I mean every week he was

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improving his local, you know, judicial control system.

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He had this pick-up truck and then he had this

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barbed wire over the back of the truck so that

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if he had to get, pick us up,

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he was gonna put us in the truck.

1:44

Luckily for us, he never did, because one of the things

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that I always try to do, I always try to be articulate.

1:48

You know, and sometimes I was

1:51

not opposed to joking with him.

1:53

I would say, "Oh Sheriff Davis, oh no, no,"

1:56

"not me, not this time."

1:57

And he would go on, I tried not to ever,

1:59

I tried to be the willow.

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You know, if he was blowing hard then I was bending, okay.

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I didn't wanna go tat for tat.

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I wasn't gonna win that, okay.

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A lot of times he just wanted to know where I was going,

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so I'd stop in the middle of the road and wait.

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I'd sit down in the grass.

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Because I didn't want him to know where I was going.

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I may be going to somebody's house who was weak,

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you understand what I'm saying?

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I went to a man's house one time and he ran whiskey,

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and if you know anything about the state of Mississippi,

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Mississippi's dry.

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So anybody who's got whiskey, you know,

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or what do you call it,

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that White Lightning, yeah.

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That's run by the sheriff.

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So, I'm sitting up there talking with

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literally one of the sheriff's men

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about joining us to go register to vote.

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I'll never forget it,

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this man had this water glass of White Lightning,

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and his position was: "This is what I do for my living."

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"Now, yous talkin' to me like the man."

2:54

"You drink that White Lightning"

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"and still have the same conversation"

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"with me at the end of this glass"

3:02

"that you're having at the beginning of this glass."

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"Convince me that this is what I need to do"

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"and I will be there tomorrow."

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Well he had talked to the wrong person 'cause at that point

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I could drink many a skunk under the table.

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And I sat there and I said: "For real?"

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And he said: "For real."

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I said: "You got time?"

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He said: "Yeah."

3:22

"Good."

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And it took me six hours.

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And I sat right there at the table

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and I was giving him a lesson.

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The conversation was always around freedom.

3:29

It was always around the right to dream this new world.

3:32

You know, I used to say to people to on the plantation,

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"Have you ever thought that you could live in a big house?"

3:40

Never crossed their minds in life.

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They had never even thought of it, you know.

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The notion, have you ever left the plantation?

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Have you ever read a book of choice?

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You know, so it wasn't always,

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Go register to vote.

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It was opening with, I used to call it,

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opening up the curtain at the window.

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That's what I used to call it.

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And I said, and look out,

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don't be afraid to see what's out there.

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And you're gonna have to be responsible now.

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So when I finished this glass of whiskey

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with this man six hours later,

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and I said to him, you know,

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"Two things; One, you do know you're gonna have"

4:15

to break the tie with sheriff,"

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"because you don't wanna be in the position"

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"where the sheriff is gonna think"

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"that you're being duplicitous to him."

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"That will put you in a worse position"

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"than the one you're already in."

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"And you're gonna have to find some other work."

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And one of the things I keep saying to young black people,

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think of a job,

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think of ways that you can work independently.

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Think of being able to support yourself.

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Develop technical skills.

4:40

Find a niche,

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because if you plan,

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if you have the mentality of going in to get that desk,

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that seat, in that agency, they got you already.

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They got you already, you know.

4:51

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You said something about opening up the curtains,

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which leads to my next question.

4:57

(panel laughs)

4:59

Can you go into how the movement helped you

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with your confidence?

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'Cause I wanna talk about, you know women,

5:07

like feminism, you know,

5:08

the women's movement,

5:11

how it sparked the women's movement.

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So how did it help you raise your self-worth,

5:13

like your notion of self worth and your confidence,

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and stuff like that?

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And if you know, like, cases of different women

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where that's happened, if you could give examples of that.

5:22

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I had seven boarders,

5:27

from the beginning,

5:30

Muriel talked about it.

5:31

Depending on whether people owned the land, or not.

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Well, I was born to a family,

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of land owners, (mumbles).

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My grandparents, my great-grandparents,

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who were probably owners,

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of (mumbles) and farms, and animals,

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and all that sorta thing,

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and I've told you about very early on,

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we're given the task, that's yours,

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that you're supposed to do,

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and nobody ever expected you not to be able to do it,

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once you reach the point in your growth

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where you should be able to handle it,

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then you handled it,

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and it didn't even occur to you,

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to think that you couldn't do it,

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that you, maybe, ought not to do it.

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You did it.

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And so because, and your tasks, of course,

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become more complex and more demanding,

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the older you got and the more you grew.

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And I don't remember ever being told

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"Victoria, you need to do this."

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or "Victoria, you need to do that."

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and I said "I can't do it."

6:39

Are you kidding?

6:40

Muriel

But that kinda thinkin'

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has never crossed your mind.

6:43

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It just wasn't there.

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So, I had the confidence.

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Now, I know that that was an exception,

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also, where are you in the state you lived

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also made a difference.

6:55

Okay?

6:56

Because there were others, probably,

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who did not have that confidence,

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because there's been nothing in their lives,

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you know, that trained them to be so.

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I had a good self image.

7:10

I had high self-esteem,

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and so that was not an issue for me.

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It was not a problem for me.

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But, I knew that it was for others.

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So, here again, was another part of my task,

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was to find ways,

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to help people to discover their real worth

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in whatever ways that reveal themselves

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as we work together,

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as we did a citizenship education,

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as we set up a telephone tree in the community

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to alert people that something is about to happen

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and make sure that word get around the community,

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rapidly and fast.

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So, as you involve people, as people become active,

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certain potential gifts reveal themselves,

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and then when you see this,

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then of course, you zero in on that,

8:09

you encourage that and invite them

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to cultivate that.

8:14

Many of my citizenship education teaches,

8:16

I mean, fresh (mumbles)

8:19

"You really think I could teach this class?"

8:21

"Of course you can teach this class."

8:23

I see that they had that potential.

8:25

And you built that self-esteem,

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or that self confidence.

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People only need a couple of futurists

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to begin, to know that they have something of worth

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to share with them.

8:44

I don't know if that gives me (mumbles) to--

8:46

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I'd like to answer from my perspective,

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because it took me another 20 years,

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to get a lot of it together.

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I mean I had to have my own family.

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I had to start raising female children,

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to begin to put the other pieces to it,

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because, in my own personal experience,

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my grandmother was a very strong woman,

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and had been very active on behalf of Black people,

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but when it cam to some of the socialization skills,

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an especially, I was in a largely female household,

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so I didn't really know anything about men.

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They were just a phenomenon for me, (laughs)

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and so, to a large degree

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I dealt with an unknown quantity.

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When it came to book reading and all that kinda stuff,

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I had all that down,

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but developing personal confidence

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and interpersonal skills and all that kind of stuff,

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it took while to really kinda get it together.

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But, just to give you some example,

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I mean, I was very confident about being an organizer.

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I've been an organizer since I was nine years of age.

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So when I came to state, I was like a veteran,

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are you kidding me?

9:54

You know how to take ten counties.

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If I could stay up that long at night.

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But then I worked with two men.

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I was getting into Issaquena,

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'cause I finally pulled out of Greenville

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and just went into Issaquena

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and I told them what to do,

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and literally, I told them what to do,

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and when we talked about it,

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but you know, you have to have--

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Organizing in part is convincing people,

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or working with people towards a commonality.

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But the other part of it is,

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you'd be surprised how few people have vision.

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How few people have any sense of what is beyond tomorrow?

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What is possible?

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What are we capable of?

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They could look at a child and say,

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and the child is having trouble reading and writing,

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and say that most people would discount,

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"Well this kid is just stupid."

10:41

"What can we do with his kid?"

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It has to be the visionary eyes

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and the visionary as a parent,

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the visionary as a friend, visionary,

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not just an organizer or voter registration,

10:50

to say you know, this cat,

10:52

everybody is born with gifts,

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and it is the parent who is the principle teacher

10:57

who has to unlock the door,

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and you don't know what door it is

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and you may be fighting the school system,

11:06

you may be fighting everybody,

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and say "No, no, my kid has gifts."

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Do you understand what I'm saying?

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And letting that come forward.

11:13

I have a kid who has a, what do you call it?

11:15

Who is learning disabled.

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I mean, we didn't even know what the problem was.

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But, when she got the call, we finally had to tackle it,

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'cause something it not happen' here.

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This kid's got so many other things going for her,

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and then working up her confidence,

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so, that was part of what capped me in terms

11:31

of my own personal (mumbles).

11:33

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A quick comment I want to make

11:38

about what I certainly said before

11:39

and at the same time to this applaud

11:42

what both Miriam and Victoria have been saying,

11:47

since then, so often in my experience,

11:50

the issue of gender and SNCC is usually framed

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in terms of whether or not SNCC was a half lap behind

11:57

the women's movement,

12:02

because the women in SNCC did not say--

12:03

I agree with you. I agree with you.

12:06

That whether SNCC was half lap behind

12:08

because women in SNCC did not say the same things,

12:10

they did not have the same fights

12:12

about equity that we associate with the women's movement

12:14

in other places.

12:18

Miriam

Very different, men struggles.

12:20

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Exactly.

12:22

And I think the place that we're coming form today

12:23

is a place of acknowledgement

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of how many women in SNCC were rather half a lap ahead,

12:27

in that they were already being powerful

12:33

and refusing some of the differences.

12:37

And so I think I just wanted to emphasize

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how much we're coming from that place of acknowledgment,

12:42

rather then looking for a confession about--

12:45

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You're right.

12:48

So let me tell you about somebody

12:49

that we have not talked about at this conference,

12:51

Ruby Doris.

12:54

Victoria

You may want to give her a chance

12:57

to raise her question.

12:59

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Okay.

13:00

Victoria

And then respond.

13:01

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Okay, go ahead.

13:02

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So that's what I was gonna to ask you,

13:03

I was gonna you ask you how did you deal

13:04

with the frustration of when you went in

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and you knew what you was doing,

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and you knew what the plan was,

13:10

and even though you knew it was gonna take a while

13:12

to win people over,

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or to win them over to see what the whole picture is,

13:16

and to see what they need to do,

13:20

how did you deal with the frustrating part

13:21

of people having no vision?

13:24

Of people feeling that hey are so helpless,

13:26

so hopeless, and helpless?

13:28

How did you deal with that?

13:32

Because that's a main, main problem in the community.

13:34

It's a big problem.

13:37

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Well that was going to have

13:41

surly be alluding to early about--

13:44

First of all, you find the level of entrance

13:45

that you can get a person to make.

13:50

For example, when I'm out there talking

13:53

to people in the community,

13:56

and I ask a couple of questions,

13:59

and then of course, they make their responses,

14:04

and I explain to them

14:10

that what they're reading in the newspapers,

14:12

what they're hearing on the radio,

14:14

what they're seeing on the television is a false thing,

14:15

there's nothing true about it.

14:21

I tell them about a person,

14:22

one of the young people who are in the community,

14:26

and I say it's really regrettable that these people

14:29

are printing these lies and saying these things

14:33

about people that are not true.

14:36

Do you know oftentimes these young people

14:38

are here working with us, they don't have food.

14:40

There are times where they're literally hungry,

14:44

and if we don't respond to those things,

14:48

they're gonna leave, and I don't blame them.

14:51

I would too.

14:54

Well see one thing that I know that you'll find

14:56

in the rural areas of Mississippi,

14:58

people can, they raise their gardens and things,

15:01

and then they can things for the winter,

15:08

and then all of a sudden somebody will say

15:12

"Oh my goodness, we don't want'em to be hungry out here."

15:14

"I can give something."

15:19

That's all I want, too.

15:21

If I can get them, you know--

15:22

Man

Whether or not there.

15:24

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If they're willing to give me a jar of preserves,

15:25

or a can of whatever, or a few potatoes in the sack,

15:30

that's an entry.

15:37

Once you can get them to invest something,

15:40

then they become curious about what's really going on.

15:47

Within a year's time, our students were the,

15:52

our volunteers were the best fed folks in Mississippi.

15:56

(audience laughs)

16:00

'Cause I had a whole cabinet of people,

16:01

I'm serious, who--

16:04

You know what their daily contribution was?

16:06

They come down to the Freedom House and cook.

16:10

So, when these youngsters come in from those jaunts

16:12

that Miriam is telling you about,

16:16

when they come in, honey, they have them a hot meal waiting.

16:18

When they got in there.

16:21

I'm serious.

16:23

They really did that.

16:24

The young men walkin' around there,

16:26

you know, shoes got water on the bottom

16:27

and some of those fellows find out about it,

16:30

oh, they were sayin' to me

16:34

"I had an uncle who's really similar."

16:35

Why doesn't Giat (mumbles),"

16:37

"you know he has such and such thing."

16:41

I say "well he's simply just not able to do it."

16:43

"Oh well, I could give him some"

16:45

(laughs) You know?

16:47

And so what happens, though again

16:49

once you get them invested,

16:51

then they get curious,

16:53

the get to meeting these young people,

16:56

listening, sharing, and finally:

16:58

"You reckon I could pass that test?"

17:05

Oh yeah.

17:10

We all from the citizen--

17:11

Ought to enroll in one citizenship education classes.

17:13

If they weren't quite ready for that,

17:17

while they are they down there in the kitchen

17:20

and where there was somebody who would

17:22

go back there and sit with'em,

17:24

and bring a form along,

17:25

and little by little you find something to affirm,

17:27

you find something that they can buy

17:31

and you work from there.

17:34

You work from there and like I said,

17:37

one or two victories, and that self confidence goes up,

17:39

their self-esteem goes up and they become

17:43

braver, and braver,

17:45

and then you look up one night and

17:47

there they are at the mass meeting.

17:49

You know they're being liberated.

17:52

Let me tell you this, I had a very close friend who was,

17:54

when the movement came to Mississippi,

17:58

I was an independent business woman, okay?

18:01

I had a very dear friend who also served

18:05

as a member of my firm,

18:07

prior to my finally closing the business down,

18:12

and going full time with the movement,

18:16

and her husband told her, she told me this later,

18:19

"I know that you will follow Victoria anywhere."

18:22

"But please, hear what I say this time."

18:26

"Not this time 'cause it's very, very dangerous."

18:28

"Those people will kill you out there."

18:30

And so she, again, 'cause I sad she distanced herself,

18:32

she took her husband's advice and distanced herself.

18:35

I met her somewhere one day and I said

18:38

"Oh, by the way darling, there's going to be"

18:40

"a very important event taking place tomorrow."

18:43

"Reverend Cameron is going to declare"

18:47

"for congressional candidacy."

18:50

"He's going to run for office."

18:54

And she said "What is that?"

18:56

And so I kinda took the time to explain to her what it was,

18:58

and I said "It's gonna happen at 12 o'clock sharp."

19:02

"So you should be off from work by then,"

19:04

"you can come by and see what's going on."

19:06

Seeing is better then hearing, you know.

19:09

And so she said "Okay, I think I'll come."

19:12

So she went to work the next morning,

19:17

she told her boss-lady that

19:21

she was gonna get off early today

19:25

because she was going to a political meeting,

19:27

she didn't have a clue what a political meeting was

19:31

(laughs)

19:34

Miriam

That's why you probably shouldn't have told her.

19:35

(audience laughs)

19:36

-

So her boss was "Listen, you don't have time"

19:45

"for any socializing, you have a job."

19:48

I mean, this is the way she talked to her,

19:50

and she said she didn't argue with her,

19:52

she just went on about her work,

19:55

so by the time she'd done everything she needed to do,

19:58

she went in looking for her,

20:01

and she had gone in her room and had gotten into bed,

20:02

and so she went in and said

20:05

"Miss, I'm getting ready to leave."

20:07

"Now, if there's anything else you need?"

20:09

And the lady forgot she was supposed to be asleep,

20:11

she jumped back up and said

20:13

"I told you that you have a job."

20:14

"You cannot be goin' to these kinda things."

20:17

And she said "Well, ma'am, I am going."

20:20

"Now, if there's something else you need me to do,"

20:24

"I'll do it before I leave. But, I'm going to this meeting."

20:26

She said "Well, if you go, don't you come back"

20:30

and she said stood there and she looked at her and said

20:34

"Okay. Thank you very much."

20:37

She said "And got my stuff together, all of my stuff."

20:40

Where before she would left her, you know--

20:44

she said "I will tell you no lie."

20:47

"When I walked out of that house"

20:50

"and started down the street,"

20:54

"for the first time in my life I knew I was adult,"

20:56

"and that I could decide what I was gonna do with my life."

21:01

She said "I can't even--"

21:04

she said "I can't describe the feeling"

21:05

"that came over me."

21:07

'Cause if anybody'd told her she would've done that,

21:09

probably ten minutes before she did it--

21:12

Miriam

The situation just evolved.

21:16

She just stepped to the plate.

21:17

-

Absolutely.

21:19

And she said that--

21:19

Interviewer

Anybody well enough to share

21:20

their SNCC impressions?

21:24

-

Allison.

21:26

-

Juana, why don't you share some of your SNCC impressions.

21:31

-

What do you want me to say?

21:34

-

Do impressions of a (cross talk drowns out speech)

21:36

-

Oh, I think that the conference is great.

21:39

The best part that I like about the conference

21:40

was when Dr. Bob Moses got this award

21:44

because he's surly a great man,

21:47

and our Algebra Project, by me being in it,

21:50

I can say is a great program,

21:52

and he did so much for the Algebra Project,

21:55

not only for the Algebra Project, but for other people,

21:57

and he just made so many peoples lives better,

21:59

and I believe he really deserved the award

22:01

and he got it today.

22:03

And that was the best part I liked about it.

22:04

-

I'm agreeing with her.

22:07

The conference was great

22:08

and I hope to come to the next one.

22:10

And that's it.

22:12

-

And I'm agreeing with him.

22:13

The conference was great.

22:15

-

I really enjoyed this conference

22:17

it gives me an opportunity to get to know about my heritage.

22:18

To get to know about the accomplishments

22:21

of others that led the way for us

22:23

to be able to go before other people

22:25

and do other things

22:27

is showing us what other people had to do

22:29

to pave the way for us to come

22:32

and be able to just be here today,

22:36

and all the accomplishments that they had to go through

22:38

then all the hardships they had to go through

22:41

for us to be able to be stand here

22:42

and listening to them and getting to understand

22:44

what the project's about.

22:46

-

I think what we had here today,

22:49

in 40th anniversary of

22:51

the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee

22:53

was a history that dealt with it's development.

22:56

Who developed it.

23:00

Why it was developed,

23:01

and the role of Ella Baker

23:03

and the real accomplishments

23:05

of the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee.

23:07

It's early maneuvers in the McComb,

23:10

it's move into the delta of Mississippi,

23:13

it's pulling together the Freedom Summer Project,

23:15

which as far as I'm concerned,

23:18

was the most creative, extensive, inclusionary,

23:20

indigenous political operation ever done

23:23

in the Civil Rights Movement.

23:25

It involved the National Council of Churches,

23:27

it in involved the creation of the Freedom Democratic Party,

23:29

it involved the Wednesday Group,

23:32

a group of people who flew in every Wednesday,

23:33

got information and the flew back out

23:35

and then talked to their congressman and their senators.

23:37

It involved the creation of the Freedom Schools.

23:39

On today, 2000, you can go to the NEA building

23:42

on 16th street in Washington, D.C. and buy that curriculum.

23:46

The politicizing of the gender question

23:51

was done by a memo written by Theresa Depazzo,

23:55

Casey Hayden, Emily Schrider and Mary King.

23:58

That memo was fed throughout the country

24:01

and led to the politicizing of the gender question

24:04

as we know it today.

24:07

So the ramifications of this conference

24:08

will live on as long as people question

24:11

what is citizenship?

24:14

Who has the right to vote?

24:16

Who has the right to make the decisions?

24:17

And how do we make a better,

24:19

how do we make America what it is supposed to be?

24:22

SNCC, without Mississippi,

24:25

would not be SNCC.

24:27

But Mississippi would not be changed without--

24:29

Mississippi recently elected a governor, Musgrove,

24:32

who was not supposed to win.

24:36

The organizing of the Black vote in Mississippi

24:38

made that happen.

24:41

So I think that we have a lot to be proud of,

24:42

and the young people who turned out today,

24:46

from across the South,

24:48

have made it very, very clear,

24:51

they're not gonna wait for us

24:53

to tell'em what to do,

24:55

and as Julian Bond,

24:56

who spoke here today, said,

24:57

"If they want to take the torch,"

24:58

"that's what they got to do."

25:01

"Take it."

25:03

-

Hi, my name is Krista Hanson,

25:04

I'm 11th grade at a near high school

25:06

in Jackson, Mississippi,

25:07

I'm a part of the Young People's Project, with Dr. Moses,

25:09

and I think that the conference was very well put together.

25:10

I learned a lot about the movement,

25:16

more about Dr. Moses' past,

25:18

how SNCC got started and what they're doing now,

25:22

and I think it's great,

25:27

and I hope to be back next year

25:28

for the 41st year anniversary.

25:30

-

Hi, my name is Tiffany Emerson,

25:34

I'm a 9th grade at Murrah high school

25:36

in Jackson, Mississippi.

25:38

I'm also a part of the Young People's Project

25:39

with Bob Moses.

25:41

I learned how Ella Baker started

25:42

and how she related to the students as her children,

25:45

for what they did within the movement.

25:49

I learned about Bob Moses' past

25:51

and I learned about what his plans for the future,

25:53

and also for the SNCC, what they want to do,

25:57

and I guess they want to start from a young people,

25:59

so that's what we're here for.

26:01

-

Hi, I'm Meredith Hinckle,

26:07

I'm a sophomore at Provine High School

26:08

near Jackson, Mississippi,

26:09

and today at the 40th anniversary of Ella Baker,

26:11

I learned a lot about her as well.

26:14

We was here, my congrats to Dr. Bob Moses

26:16

for winning the Ella Baker Award,

26:20

as well as--

26:22

I had fun at this,

26:26

I participated in the Welding's workshop

26:28

and I think they did a great job.

26:30

I commend them on that as well.

26:32

Thank you.

26:34

(crowd chatter)

26:35

Interviewer

Would you like to share

27:09

your impressions of the conference?

27:09

-

Sure, I guess--

27:11

I've (audio cuts out) today so,

27:13

I'm just getting a feel for it today,

27:15

and hopefully, I'll get more tomorrow.

27:16

I've been enjoying myself.

27:18

I guess it's (giggles)

27:20

I'll expand later.

27:23

-

I guess, I thought it was really interesting.

27:28

I'm coming back tomorrow.

27:32

I'm kinda looking forward to coming back

27:33

to hearing some more discussions on some more issues.

27:34

I especially, I wished I could have gone to more

27:38

of the specific topics, specific discussions,

27:41

but, because they're all at the same time,

27:45

it's unfortunate, you're only able to go to one.

27:47

But I'm really looking forward to tomorrow.

27:50

I think it'll be good.

27:52

-

Am I responding to any kind of questions?

27:54

Or just giving some general comments?

27:55

Interviewer

Just general comments and reactions.

27:57

What's your most compelling experience.

27:59

-

My most compelling experience has been,

28:01

there's been a number.

28:03

One being in the presence of Bob Moses

28:04

and Casey Hayden as we just kind of figure out

28:06

how to create the space to create

28:09

some positive social change in American society.

28:10

That's been positive.

28:16

Just being around so many people that you've read about,

28:17

and talked about as, but in history and--

28:20

It's great to be able to put names to faces

28:23

and actually meet-and-greet some of the folks

28:26

who've done so much to make a positive impact

28:28

on American society.

28:31

That's it.

28:33

-

In the presence of movement activists

28:34

who have contributed so much to the uplift of America,

28:36

but also, the other thing that's inspiring

28:39

is to listen to the younger people and also,

28:41

people who weren't in the movement in the 60's

28:44

are talking about getting active in social change.

28:46

I think all those conversations have been very positive.

28:49

Interviewer

Give me a grab focus and..

28:56

Okay.

29:04

-

Well, my name is Hollis Wagner

29:07

and so far I think the conference has been going good.

29:10

It's been a good process on sharing.

29:14

I think it's a good, in particular,

29:18

that enough people are here

29:20

has got different pieces of the puzzle,

29:23

and putting it together that allows one to get the whole.

29:26

I'm very impressed, also,

29:31

by the large number of young people that are out.

29:34

Not just all the nerd young people,

29:37

in terms of just being out,

29:40

but ordinary young people who seem to be

29:42

doin' meaningful work,

29:44

and are interested in doing meaningful work,

29:46

and are very inquisitive.

29:49

So, ask good questions, and make good comments.

29:50

So far, I've been very impressed with the conference.

29:53

Sure.

29:56

-

I did the negative one, comin' down.

30:04

-

Did you (mumbles)

30:08

-

That's what I'm saying.

30:09

To investigate it.

30:10

Whoever you want, who was there

30:14

(crowd chatter drowns out speech)

30:17

so it's kinda hard, for all the--

30:20

Do you want us?

30:22

-

You let us know when you're ready.

30:24

Interviewer

I'm ready.

30:26

-

Do you want to ask me anything?

30:27

Interviewer

I just, you're impressions

30:29

of the conference.

30:31

Sort of the best experience that you've had here.

30:32

Most compelling thing that's come across to you.

30:35

-

My impressions of the conference

30:37

have been that it's like seeing a long lost family member.

30:39

Okay, because you have a lot of these folks

30:43

who have come back together,

30:45

and who can share stories,

30:47

and who bring home memories about a lot of things

30:49

that many people, who in 1990, have forgotten ever occurred.

30:53

There's another generation who don't even--

30:58

who were not even aware that these things took place.

31:01

They just sort of take for granted what happens now.

31:03

A lot of the advantages that young folks

31:06

are even able to enjoy now are as result

31:07

of the extreme sacrifices

31:10

of the people during the 60's had to make.

31:12

To really simplify it,

31:15

there are those who are sticking their necks out for what--

31:17

are sticking their hands out

31:19

for what others stuck their necks out for.

31:21

And I think the conference is great.

31:24

I'm enjoying it.

31:25

I'm lucky, it's a learning experience.

31:26

You got some things to say about it.

31:29

-

Ditto to that,

31:34

but as a historian, I think the most profound part

31:36

of the conference was the presentations

31:40

that shared that the movement did not stop in 65 or 66,

31:44

and SNCC, in fact, did not.

31:50

I'm a member of SNCC in the late 60's

31:52

and as we moved from some of the direct action,

31:56

activities, and moved on to the economic development,

32:00

as well as political activities,

32:04

it's a part of the story that very often is not included,

32:07

because people get into the more dramatic times

32:12

in the early 60's.

32:17

So I find that in addition to everything

32:18

that's wonderful about the reunion and the remembering,

32:21

I'm gratified and humbled that we're beginning

32:25

to piece together the rest of the story.

32:28

-

They find out you you are trying to capture the vote,

32:34

it's fine.

32:36

(crowd chatter drowns out speech)

32:38

I don't think we see the connection between

32:51

our well being, don't you?

32:54

'Cause they've heard politicians today

32:56

"Vote for me."

32:57

you know you'll have better streets,

32:58

you'll have all this, and all this,

32:59

it's been bullshit,

33:01

and so they've got disillusioned with it.

33:02

They don't believe,

33:04

there's no connection

33:05

between voting for a candidate and their condition.

33:06

I think that once they start beginning

33:11

to see the connection, they're gonna vote.

33:12

See, in Mississippi and other places,

33:15

they saw a connection.

33:16

They saw how all the tax money was being spent over

33:17

in the White community and the schools were better,

33:20

roads were better, everything was better,

33:22

and they saw that by voting you could

33:25

(crowd discussion drowns out speech)

33:28

Even the White politician in some

33:31

(crowd discussion drowns out speech) gonna be more

33:32

responsive because Black folks

33:35

had the laws of power our place,

33:37

a lot of those counties are African-Americans

33:39

made up a majority of the county 60-70% of the count,

33:42

yet, there was an all White government.

33:46

With time it changed, though.

33:48

That's my analysis of it.

33:50

-

I was just wondering,

33:52

because I didn't realize it's a huge problem.

33:53

Thank you.

34:00

-

All right. Thank you, thank you.

34:01

Interviewer

Want to share some impressions

34:03

of the conference so far?

34:04

-

Oh mind is, woo!

34:07

Mind blowing.

34:08

It's so great having people back together, reunion,

34:10

to think back on the struggle for freedom.

34:15

How you can renew your energies,

34:21

renew your commitment.

34:23

I'm glad it's happening.

34:28

I'm glad that God let me live 40 years to see it.

34:30

Thank you.

34:33

-

Go ahead, bring it down for the camera.

34:34

-

In this conference I believe the evaluation

34:37

of the problems that the generation

34:41

that had passed before me

34:45

faced and how they accepted them.

34:47

Not accepted them, but how they fought against them,

34:50

and developed a new system for me to live in,

34:54

a better system for me to live in,

34:59

although it's not totally right,

35:00

which we'll be talking about in the conference.

35:02

How do we get to a just society?

35:06

If we realize the society we live in now is not just,

35:08

and this conference is kind of giving us options

35:11

and teaching us how they got to what they believed

35:14

was a just society,

35:16

and how we should attempt to do it once we on.

35:17

-

I'm looking at this conference as an opportunity

35:22

to meet some very wonderful people,

35:24

I mean, this is a tribute to Miss Baker,

35:26

but also as something that,

35:29

it's kind of developed for me as a way to identify

35:31

how we help our people,

35:34

how we narrow the generational gap,

35:38

and how we learn from the older generation,

35:41

and how the older generation learn and listen to us,

35:43

so that it's not just someone talking at you

35:46

about what happened,

35:48

but have them listen to us,

35:49

and have us listen to them,

35:50

instead of screaming, you know,

35:51

"Our generation is faced with this"

35:53

and saying "Well, we dealt with it just like this."

35:54

And trying to put'em together.

35:57

That's pretty much what I'm (mumbles.)

36:00

-

I've had experience, some prior experience,

36:02

in civil rights and all the movements,

36:05

and I'm here just to share experience

36:08

and meet a lot of people,

36:11

talk to young people and see what their ideas,

36:12

and what changes they think should be made

36:14

and there's a lot of pressure eon these young people that,

36:16

young students that come to these conference,

36:20

because of their needs and their ideas are different,

36:22

and we are set in our ways and don't want to change,

36:25

and we have to change

36:28

in order to work and learn from these young students,

36:29

and that's why I'm spending time taking with them,

36:33

trying to learn, to get their ideas of what they think,

36:36

and what changes I need to make,

36:38

and I don't want to give up the power,

36:40

I don't want to pass the torch on to them,

36:42

so they gotta take it from me.

36:44

But I appreciate them, and they should.

36:46

'Cause they have good ideas,

36:48

and their needs, and their ideas are different

36:50

because of technology and the changes,

36:52

and I enjoy talkin' with them

36:55

because they have a lot of ideas

36:56

and we should be flexible.

36:58

Interviewer

How do you think things are different now,

37:02

then they were in 1960?

37:03

-

Well, difference--

37:06

-

Maybe we should be asking him.

37:07

-

I believe I can say,

37:11

the problem that I face today

37:13

I believe are different form the problems they faced then

37:15

because we have more opportunities,

37:18

and some of these opportunities,

37:20

they are opportunities but the still may be harmful.

37:22

As you know I said earlier,

37:25

I have some friends who are in prison,

37:27

I have friends who are dead because of gunshots,

37:28

and also I have some friends who are addicted to drugs,

37:31

and I face these problems today,

37:34

they faced problems of injustice, oppression,

37:36

and racism.

37:39

I believe although those, those three things are prevalent,

37:41

they're major fixtures in our society today,

37:44

but other problems have risen,

37:49

and that's the problems I come in contact with

37:51

on a daily basis,

37:53

where I don't believe this gentleman right here,

37:54

had to face.

37:56

Or to the extant (crowd discussion drowns out speech)

37:58

-

If I tell him we still have the same problems,

38:02

just a little different,

38:04

he won't believe me.

38:05

But there still here.

38:06

They're just different.

38:07

When you go into these small towns and area

38:09

they still that.

38:10

It doesn't change.

38:11

It's just the face of change.

38:13

Community change.

38:15

We didn't have them change,

38:18

we still have the same problems.

38:19

Interviewer

And those problems are what?

38:20

What are the problems?

38:22

-

Well, they have basic problem in education,

38:25

school lover, or how they treat kids in school,

38:29

they make them line up for this, and line up for that,

38:32

line up for that,

38:34

when we went to cafeteria,

38:35

when I was in high school,

38:37

we could share, eat lunch with the next class,

38:38

the senior class or the junior class,

38:42

if I'm a sophomore.

38:44

They can't do that.

38:45

They have to eat with their class,

38:46

set in a certain position,

38:48

you can't talk, you can't do--

38:49

we could do--

38:51

we had the freedom of the school.

38:51

We didn't have strenuous rules, or regulation,

38:55

cause our parents, we knew what we were supposed

38:57

to do when we went to school.

38:58

They have a lot of pressure.

39:00

-

Yeah, I believe a lot of that is--

39:01

a lot of the people in the movement

39:03

and during the 60's had the parental foundation,

39:05

whereas, a lot of them, some of them,

39:11

I'm not gonna say all of them did,

39:14

but some of them had both a mother and a father,

39:15

whereas we live in the age where divorce is popular,

39:17

and where you have a lot of single mothers,

39:21

and teen pregnancy,

39:23

and the youth,

39:29

I'm not gonna say the youth 'cause I'm one of them,

39:30

my generation, of some of the opportunities and advantages,

39:32

that they had.

39:37

You have anything to say?

39:39

-

The problems today, I think are educational,

39:43

and not just educational like our school systems,

39:46

it's education, you know,

39:48

parents aren't teaching their children,

39:50

and we're not teaching our brothers and sisters,

39:53

I feel that everybody is different

39:55

and it should be appreciated that way.

40:00

We don't have kids walking up to other kids,

40:01

or the older generation,

40:04

just walking up to somebody that

40:05

they might be different from,

40:07

and that's the first thing that I think needs to be tackled.

40:08

People have to just accept other peoples.

40:16

Make a friend that's not, that doesn't look like you,

40:18

or doesn't come from the same economical background,

40:21

and you will learn,

40:24

and that's where the education needs to happen.

40:25

I think.

40:28

If that happens, we won't have issues

40:29

like the flag coming down in South Carolina,

40:31

or anything like that.

40:33

Any other questions?

40:38

Workshop, 2000 April

Transcript

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John Hope Franklin Research Center